Social Norms

Why do people say “How are you?” but don’t expect a real answer? And is it rude to start eating before everyone else? In this episode, Donielle and Khrystyna explore social norms, while sharing funny, surprising, and sometimes confusing cultural differences. 

Show Notes  

Transcript

Donielle: Welcome to Coffee and Conversation for ESL listening. I'm Donielle.

Khrystyna: And I’m Khrystyna, so grab a cup and join the conversation.

Donielle: Hello, how are you?

Khrystyna: I'm okay. How have you been?

Donielle: Fine. We were just chatting for a few minutes and I think we've gotten a little bit loopy over here. We're just tired and laughing. You know how -  you, particularly, when you get tired, you start laughing uncontrollably.

Khrystyna: Gosh, you know what? I can't believe you still remember that because that is true. I mean, I think it's all of those nights of teaching that we would get so tired, and yes, I do get all giggly and just goofy when I get tired. That's true. Or I just fall asleep like that. Don’t do that when you teach.

Donielle: Yeah, I was going to say, which one are we going to get today? Are we going to get crazy Khrystyna or a sleeping Khrystyna?

Khrystyna: Well, based on your giggling already, I think crazy.

Donielle: Oh, my goodness. Well, so, happy New Year. And of course, as I always say, who knows when this will actually come out. It'll probably be summer, but…

Khrystyna: Well, I hope not. I mean, but it is a new year.

Donielle: for those of you who don't know, we kind of tend to, record a bunch of these one after another and so they don't exactly come out immediately. So anyway, happy New Year. Um, it's wild one.

Khrystyna: It is. It is. We'll see where the life takes us with this, the world as it is now, but we’ll get through it.

Donielle: So anyway, how so? You know, I was in Chicago for Christmas. I’m sorry; I didn’t visit you.

Khrystyna: Oh, yes, you were.

Donielle: How was your Christmas?

Khrystyna: It was good. It was good. It was a lot of family time. My husband's family was here and I had a little break from work, which was nice. It was good.

Donielle: Yeah, that's always nice.

Khrystyna: Yeah. How was Chicago?

Donielle: Cold. I forgot how cold it was.

Khrystyna: Well, you know, if you went two and a half hours south, 

Donielle: Yeah.

Khrystyna: it would be a little warmer for you, 

Donielle: I don't know that it would be warmer, but anyway, yeah, it was kind of a short trip, so, and plus I knew you were busy, so next time for sure, I'll see you.

Khrystyna: I'll try not to hold that against you.

Donielle: Okay. Try not to. All right. Well, so today we have a topic. You know, we always try to find something interesting, something that might be relevant to culture, something…maybe we might learn something new. I don't know. So, I got to thinking about social norms and for those who maybe don't know what that means, it's basically those unspoken rules in a society of your daily life things that you're supposed to do. We don't always talk about them, but we do them because we know that we're supposed to do them.

Khrystyna: Mm-hmm.

Donielle: And I was thinking about this show that I watch, it's called Curb Your Enthusiasm. I don't know if you've ever seen it,

Khrystyna: Uh Huh. Yes, I have.

Donielle: Okay. And one of the things about that show, it's a lot of things, but one of the things is the guy just cannot handle social norms.

Khrystyna: Oh, gosh.

Donielle: And when you think about it, we think about social norms and sometimes we think that they're sort of universal, you know, and they're not. They're really not, which is very interesting.

Khrystyna: It is. And I think social norms have a lot to do with the culture, because you're right, they are different and it is so important to actually know them because you can get into some very awkward situations.

Donielle: Yeah. Or just you feel weird. And I think I've talked about this before many years ago when I was teaching in this school, they had mostly Polish students and Chinese students. And I was sure they all hated me because… yes, I was sure because I would be up there smiling and laughing and joking and… you see where this is going… and nothing flat face, no smile, nothing.

And I thought, oh, these people hate me. And it was, sometime later that they were talking to me and they're like, it's just not in our culture to really smile and Americans smile all the time.

Khrystyna: So, funny story about that. I'm glad you started with this. When my husband visited me the very first time when we were still dating, one of the things…that's exactly the thing he noticed, he said. Nobody's smiling. And I was like, can you just tone down your cheesing over here? Because everybody knows you are not from around here. 'cause you're smiling to everybody. But he even made this little, sad tune. Every time he talked about Ukrainians, he would be like womp, womp, womp.

Donielle: Here he was trying to be all friendly and happy, and they're like, take it easy.

Khrystyna: And you're right. And here's the thing, it is not that Ukrainians are not fun or welcoming or happy or anything. I think maybe it has to do something that strangers--like, I don't know, you. So, I'm not going to be smiley and all that. it's with friends and family and people you know, when you actually come out of your shell and have fun and all that. 

But yeah, it is not, definitely not in Ukrainian culture or not a social norm there to be smiling to everybody as much as everybody does in the United States.

Donielle: And it's the kind of thing that you think, oh, well. That's just a simple thing. Doesn't everybody smile? No, they don't. And another one that was really interesting to me, and I realized this, that okay, you know, my husband is from India and he doesn't really say thank you a lot, but…I was always like, oh, well I brought him something, but he didn't say, thank you. Okay, whatever. Well, over time, I guess he started doing that more because when I went to India, they were making fun of him because he started saying thank you. Like, they would give him something like, you know, food or drink or something, and he'd be like, thank you. And they're like, what? Thank you? Why are you thanking me? This is how we're supposed to be. And it never dawned on me that you might look at that differently, then that's…why should you thank me? This is…of course I would offer you some food.

Khrystyna: You know, I'm trying to think because I we both had students from India too and all that, and I've never noticed that part. But now that you say that, I do see that a lot of the times they don't necessarily say thank you, but they're like, oh okay. 

Donielle: Yeah. 

Khrystyna: It's more of that: Okay, okay.

Donielle: Yeah.

Khrystyna: But I always think of that as, okay, so they're acknowledging or, you know, but interesting.

Donielle: I know. So it just goes to show you that never assume anything about anybody because cultures are just so different.

Khrystyna: Right. Well, and along with that, like the smiling and pleasantries and all that. The small talk or the way even we say hello in the United States. Usually it's, hello, how are you? How is it going? Right?

Donielle: Yeah.

Khrystyna: In other countries it's: hi, hello. Good day. There's no, how are you? because in a lot of cultures, when you actually ask somebody, how are you, you want them to answer and tell you how things are going. In the United States, it's just a greeting. Like, nobody wants you to tell them what's going on. And I remember that when I was still back in Ukraine; I was learning English, and my English teacher told us that they will ask you how are you during greeting. But do not tell them how you actually are. 

Donielle: I’ve got aches and pains…

Khrystyna: Yeah. Like nobody wants to know. 

Donielle: I just lost my job.

Khrystyna: Nobody actually wants to hear about it. Yeah. Yes. So, I thought that was interesting, and it took me a while to finally realize that, oh, it's just part of the greeting. Like they don't want to know how I'm doing. It's like it's just saying hi.

Donielle: Okay. So this is one of those things that you know... I think to myself, social norms, some of 'em are normal or good or fine. And then there are some that are like, this is really senseless. I don't understand it. And that is one of them. And I find myself… I think I've probably said this before too, but like if I go to the grocery store or something and then the cashier will be like, good morning, how are you? And I'll be like, great, and you? 'cause of course I give a fake answer to the fake question. Right. “And you?” They ignore me. Because they're not even listening. They're not even paying any attention. And I always say to myself, why do I keep falling into this stupid trap? I keep saying, “and you?” and they just…crickets.

Khrystyna: Nothing. Well, it's kind of like when they ask you, oh, did you find everything you were looking for? Well, and one of those times, I actually do want to say no, actually this is my third place that I'm looking for this specific thing, and I still haven't found it. But then, they're not going to do anything about it. Like, they're cashiers, they're trying to get stuff through quickly. What -  do you think they're going to go and look for that thing? No. Like, why are you asking me this?

Donielle: That is something that I talk about all the time. I mean, that is… I think we've talked about it on our pet peeve show, because that's a pet peeve of mine. It's like, why are you asking me this? It's meaningless and it doesn't make any sense. But anyway.

Khrystyna: Yeah. Fun.

Donielle: Yeah, I guess I've heard of other cultures too that have those kinds of things like where—I forgot where it was. I think it was Japan or something—where instead of like, how are you doing? It's like, oh, where are you coming from? Or something like that. And it's like they don't really care where you're coming from or where you're going but you know, we all have those, I guess.

Khrystyna: Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

Donielle: What about, Ukraine? Is there some kind of greeting like that or something that you just say, but it doesn't really mean anything?

Khrystyna: Not necessarily. I think in some smaller towns, the greeting is religious.

Donielle: Okay.

Khrystyna: so instead of saying hello or a good day or some good morning, people will say like, glory to God kind of thing.

Donielle: Okay.

Khrystyna: And then there's a standard reply to that. But not necessarily. Again, it's just Hello. Hi. Wave. Nod. Scowl. Depends… 

Donielle: …who you run into.

Khrystyna: But there isn't any… like this whole little small talk and all that. and sometimes people will start small talk with you, kind of just kill time or make a conversation and it's meaningless a lot of the times. Usually that doesn't happen in Ukraine. I mean, if you stop to talk to somebody, it's because you have something to say. They have something to say. You either know them or whatever. They want to complain about something. I don't know. So, but there is no such thing as just a little small talk 

Donielle: Yeah. 'cause I know we definitely do that. You know, if we're waiting around somewhere, someone is standing next to you, you might strike up some kind of a conversation about, something meaningless or, the weather or something like that. But an awkward thing is sometimes when you get in an elevator. And there's like two or three other people in there, and of course, you go in there—that’s a social norm—you go in and you turn around and you face the door, of course, because boy, that would be weird if you didn't. Right?

Khrystyna: Yes.

Donielle: And then so you're just kind of standing there and looking everywhere except at the person who's standing next to you. No eye contact. Yeah, because that's the other thing that I was going to talk about, social norms in the US is about personal space. And I kind of put that together. Personal space - privacy. I kind of put that together as one in a way. And I think that's probably one of our biggest, is that we really value our personal space and we don't want people coming too close to us to talk.

Khrystyna: Yes. And I agree with that. That's one of the things that I very much learned here. but I remember an example of one time when I was teaching at night and it was a student from another country, and I think in his culture, personal space wasn't a concept, social norm. So he was talking to me and he would just keep getting closer. And I remember just stepping back and then he would get closer and I would step back more and step back more. And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to hit this wall and I'll have nowhere else to go.

Donielle: Yeah.

Khrystyna: But I think that's one big difference between the United States and some other cultures. And I think there are cultures that personal space is very much a social norm or valued, but there are some South American or central American countries, I think there's more of a closeness there. So there isn't much of a personal space there.

Donielle: Yeah. I wonder if it has to do also with places that are typically very crowded, and you don't get a lot of personal space. And so it's like you have to put that in your culture that it isn't important, because if you did, it would probably drive you crazy.

Khrystyna: Well, and the other thing too—going back to greetings, but in different way—of how people greet each other. You know how sometimes it's either a bow or it's a handshake or wave, but in some cultures it's a hug or even a kiss on the cheek.

Donielle: Yeah. Yeah.

Khrystyna: and that's [a] norm. I know in the United States, if somebody just comes up to you, gives you a hug and kiss on the cheek, you probably wouldn't necessarily know what to do.

Donielle: Yeah. that would be awkward.

Khrystyna: Yes. But in some countries, that's just how it is. That's how they greet each other, whether people know each other or not. Yeah. Yeah. also, even with that, in some countries it's just like a kiss on one cheek and some countries it's both cheeks so yeah, it's interesting.

Donielle: Yeah, it definitely is. But probably, that's part of our personal space thing that, when they come in for like a kiss or a hug, you're like, whoa!

Khrystyna: How, what if everybody, anybody ever said, whoa, you know?

Donielle: Larry David from that show would.

Khrystyna: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. So, you know, another social norm or a cultural difference is food. I mean, we always talk about food, right? 

Donielle: Always. Yeah, why stop now?

Khrystyna: But one of the biggest differences that I noticed when I moved here was the portion sizes. And I think everybody knows that too.The portion sizes are very generous in the United States.

Donielle: I don’t know if it's so much anymore. I feel like it has suffered from shrink-flation, just like a lot of other things.

Khrystyna: I love that word shrink-flation. I'll have to remember to use it, but it makes sense, right? I mean, now, because you want to raise prices, you just give less food. But in general, I remember not too long ago, it was one of the culture shocks for me because when I came here and the first time I went to a restaurant, they put this huge plate in front of you, and I'm thinking: that's a serving platter in my country. Usually when we have family dinner or guests over, but I remember that time when my husband was in Ukraine, he mentioned something that, in Ukraine, their dinner plates are our bread plates, like the size of the bread plates because we use small plates for our food. And now I'm thinking about my plates in the house. We are doing it American style because that's what the dish sets are.

Donielle: Mm-hmm.

Khrystyna: I'm like, the regular dinner plate is usually a serving plate to share as a family or share at the table. So that was like one of the big things for me. like the portion sizes, but also everything else is kind of oversized here.

Donielle: Yeah, that's true. And I guess, part of it again comes to space, if you have space.

Khrystyna: Right.

Donielle: Things just tend to be bigger. Like our houses tend to be bigger and, there's more space between them.

Khrystyna: Right, right. I agree.

Donielle: Bigger plates, throw more stuff on it.

Khrystyna: Well, and then, the other thing is going out or fast food or just eating out. Honestly, when I was growing up, I don't know how many times we actually went out my whole life until I moved here. And here, it's just, that's a norm. Everybody does it.

Donielle: That's true. Yeah.

Khrystyna: And I think the whole idea about food here is mostly: I need sustenance to live. Quick. Something fast, right? 'cause there's no time. And in a lot of cultures, food is time with the family, time to sit down and relax, time to connect, time to share, like nobody rushes you. Which I experienced that—even  in Canada—the difference.

Donielle: Yeah.

Khrystyna: So I was like, huh, that must be something specifically for American culture.

Donielle: Yeah. And I think a lot of it comes down to the tipping aspect. And I know we talked about this also in another show, but if you are in a culture where tips are not expected, there's no incentive to really try to push turnover of tables, because as the server, you're going to get paid what you get paid, right?

But in our culture, they live on tips. So turnover is key. So, if you come in with your group and, spend hours at a table. Whoo. That would be a really big problem.

Khrystyna: Yeah. Oh I agree. Yes, that's true.

Donielle: But then even at home, we don't sit around the table and talk and do that either. 

Khrystyna: Because you're so used to it,

Donielle: Yeah.

Khrystyna: That's the thing. that's part of the culture. That's part of the mentality that, you know, you fix dinner, you sit down, you eat, and you're done, and you go move on to something else. Right? 

Donielle: Yeah, go do something else.

Khrystyna: And another thing. The culture of, or the social norms about work. Like, in the United States, and I feel like it's kind of known across the world that in the United States it's all about work, right? People work so hard, people work so much. People work so many long hours. And when you think about some other cultures, there's a lot more flexibility. There's, I mean, people have five o'clock tea time and they have siestas and they have four- day work weeks, and, there's just a whole different, mentality about it.

Donielle: Yeah, sometimes we say hustle culture.

Khrystyna: Yes. Yeah.

Donielle: And that’s what we have here. It's like, gotta be, you know, work, work, work, work, work. And I hate that, you know? And I'm always talking to my students from other countries and they laugh, we all laugh, but it's like, it's not really so funny. They have so much time off, they've got a holiday every other week it seems, and they just cannot believe how few holidays we have here, like holidays where you get off of work and you get paid.

Khrystyna: Yeah, Americans are not the culture of slowing down and taking your time, unfortunately.

Donielle: Yeah. I know; it's move move, move.

Khrystyna: Yeah.

Donielle: Talking about, social norms with eating made me think of. Also in the restaurant, when you're in a restaurant and you're with, a couple other people and sometimes the food doesn't all come out at the same time, right? One person will get served. Do you think that it is polite if that person who got their food first goes ahead and starts eating? Or would you think they should wait until everyone's food arrives?

Khrystyna: So for me personally, if it was me, I would wait. But I don't care if people start eating before my food is there. In fact, I encourage people to do that because I don't want their food to get cold.

Donielle: Exactly. That's another one of those social norms that I think is kind of ridiculous is we're supposed to wait until everyone has food, and I just think it's nonsense. Why would you sit there and let your food get cold? You know, we're not going anywhere until we're all finished anyway. It's okay.

Khrystyna: Right, right. 

Donielle: I know, but I do it too. if my food comes first, I'll be sitting there, put my hands together and just wait quietly. Hoping someone will say, go ahead and eat.

Khrystyna: Now if it's just like my husband and me, you know, then.

Donielle: Oh, yeah.

Khrystyna: Then, obviously one of us will start eating. I was like, you don't have to wait for me, or… but I notice that my husband does that at home, if we're fixing dinner and. You know, if it's just going to fix your own stuff or whatever, dish in a plate. And he will sit there and wait for me to get to the table. And sometimes I'm like, I still gotta fix my tea and I need to get this, and then I gotta chop my cucumber. just go and eat. He's like, no, I wanna eat with you. But he also eats really fast. So sometimes by the time I get to the table, he's done.

Donielle: Oh, that’s sweet.

Khrystyna: But no, it is really sweet and considerate. Now my son on the other hand, he is like, pffft, not waiting for anyone.

Donielle: nah.

Khrystyna: I'm hungry.

Donielle: He's got the right idea. Just get to chowing down.

Khrystyna: Right, right.

Donielle: I'm all about it. What else? There's so many, but oh, you know what? One thing that I wanna talk about this, I thought this was really interesting and I know you've got some too, and as always, time is flying. What about gift giving? This is another thing that I experienced that I thought was really interesting because in the United States, you give a gift. Say you go to a birthday party or bridal shower or baby shower, whatever the heck it is, and everyone's got gifts. There's a certain time, like probably I think before the cake or after the cake, I don't know what it is, where they take all the gifts and they start opening it and we all ooh and aah over what the gift was. And that's not the way it is in a lot of cultures. How is it for you?

Khrystyna: No, that's not a good thing. Well, here's the thing. It was very, strange concept for me when I first experienced it here.

Donielle: Yeah.

Khrystyna: Because. the reason you don't do that, in my country or some other cultures that I know of, because -- becomes like, oh, somebody gave me expensive gift and not everybody can get the same gift of the same value. And when you do that, then that could hurt people's feelings and I personally don't agree with this concept.

Donielle: Yeah. I totally get it, but sometimes it's just so fun to see someone's reaction when you give them something that you know they're going to just be like, wow.

Khrystyna: It is.

Donielle: or be surprised about, or a fun joke or something like that, you know?

Khrystyna: It is. And definitely, it's pleasant to see if that somebody opens your gift and they really like it. But, I don't know, I still do that. I always worry abou--;like, what if, somebody gives something smaller or less, is that going to make them feel bad or, you know, uncomfortable,

Donielle: Yeah, or if you're not good at hiding your disappointment. If you got something you didn't like,

Khrystyna: Oh my gosh.

Donielle: like kids, man, they can be brutal, right?

Khrystyna: Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes.

Donielle: Oh, I saw this one video once. It was so funny. And this was like I've never seen anything like it. For some reason there was this kid his parents did this video. And he just loved gifts. He didn't care what it was. And they had this thing where like they'd wrap up a cutting board or something and he'd open it up and he'd be like, oh wow, you got so excited. I was like, man, not every kid can be like that. 'cause it was so funny.

Khrystyna: You know when my son was really little, maybe like two we were asking him what he wanted for Christmas. Like what? He wanted Santa to bring him and he'd keep telling everybody. He just wants a blue present.

Donielle: Blue. Okay.

Khrystyna: Blue present. Guess who had to go and get some blue wrapping paper?

Donielle: Is that his favorite color?

Khrystyna: Yes. Yeah. We just couldn't get it out of him. It was like, what does this kid want for Christmas? and all he was saying was like, I just want a present. I just want a blue present. I'm like, okay.

Donielle: That's so funny. Be like, ok kid, here's your can of paint!

Khrystyna: Yes, blue present. But you know, the other thing is too, that's kind of like a social norm here, but that's not a tradition or norm in other countries. Showers: like baby shower, bridal shower. Like, we don't do that. this was so weird to me.

Donielle: Yeah,

Khrystyna: And I think that might come with like certain superstitions because you're not supposed to do things ahead of time, right? So we would never give a bride a gift ahead of time, or you would never give a pregnant woman a gift for the baby ahead of the baby being born, right? Bad luck. And here all these showers and everybody gives you all these gifts. And I remember the very first one I went to, I'm like. This is actually [a] really cool idea because you get all this cool stuff and by the time the

Donielle: ready to go when the baby's here

Khrystyna: Yes. You're good to go.

Donielle: Exactly.

Khrystyna: So one social norm I really wanted to mention is, multi-generational household.

Donielle: Oh yeah. Ooh!

Khrystyna: Yes.

Donielle: This is tricky because this kind of goes with our privacy kind of thing, and it's like, we don't like a whole lot of people hanging around.

Khrystyna: That's true. Yes. It is very much of, you know, in the United States, it's like you're what, 18? You're expected to live your own life.

Donielle: Yeah, kick that birdy out of the nest.

Khrystyna: Yes. Right? yeah, you gotta go. Now in most countries. People stay together. Now things are changing, I think because people don't stay in the same town anymore. Especially if they're from a smaller town or village, they tend to go to bigger cities. But, for the most part, people live together with the parents or even sometimes grandparents.

Donielle: Yeah.

Khrystyna: and that's acceptable. That's expected. In fact, in my own family, my parents lived…we lived with our grandparents for a little bit 'cause I was very little. And when I went into kindergarten, that's when finally, we moved into a different apartment that was just my parents, my brother and I. And that was because we were able to get an apartment, right? 'cause sometimes you just can't afford to buy an apartment or a house, but my mother was the oldest of four and the youngest one was, another girl, a sister. And my aunt, she actually went to school in a different city pretty far away from home.

Donielle: Mm-hmm.

Khrystyna: But she came back because it was expected that she was supposed to stay with the parents and take care of them and live in the same house with them.

Donielle: Wow. Ooh,

Khrystyna: So, yeah, grandma always lived with my aunt and her family and that's just how it was.

Donielle: Yeah, sometimes you hear about things and it just sounds so like, oh no, I wouldn't want that. Or, that would be hard, but if that's the way it's always been in your life and in your culture, anything else would be strange, you know?

Khrystyna: But then when you think of it like as you're raising a family there's always…

Donielle: Yeah,

Khrystyna: grandma, and grandparents, and they help you raise your children. They help you around the house. It's just…that's how it is. That's the way of living, and when you think about here, it's hard sometimes when you're just on your own.

Donielle: And especially like a lot of times, people move away from their family and so they're in a town where there's no grandparents, no parents, and if you need to go somewhere or do something, gotta get a babysitter, you know? So.

Khrystyna: You've got to figure stuff out. Right. And I'm seeing now more that, and I think that has to be because of the economy and how things are that more and more people after they graduate college, they come back and live with their parents for a while 'cause they can't afford to buy a house or even rent.

Donielle: Oh yeah. Forget rent too. Yeah, it's true. Things have definitely changed a lot just in my lifetime.

Khrystyna: But you know what bothers me most is how much that's still frowned upon here, right? Oh, you live with your parents.

Donielle: Yeah.

Khrystyna: Right? And so, one of my coworkers is from Congo—Democratic Republic of Congo—and she has four children, and one of them already graduated college; one just went to college, and I guess the one who graduated college, is still looking for a job and all that. And she's telling me that all of these people keep telling her well, you gotta kick him out of the house. Like you gotta kick him out, and she goes. How can…he's my child. I can't kick him out of the house. Why would I want him to leave? Or, you know,

Donielle: That must seem so strange to get that kind of advice, right? Yeah.

Khrystyna: Yes. Yeah.

Donielle: But it's just a completely different way of looking at things. And it's not to say one way is right or one way is wrong, but you have very strong feelings for, how you view things to be according to your culture. So,

Khrystyna: Yeah.

Donielle: I think we could probably talk about this for days 'cause there's so much interesting stuff. But, yeah. So

Khrystyna: Oh, sounds like part two.

Donielle: It could be. Could be. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, anyway, it was fun talking about this topic with you. It was very interesting. I want to remind everybody, as always, as I try to remember to say, do get the show notes. We've got some vocabulary, some other, hopefully cultural notes or something that's interesting. So definitely click on the show notes and download those. And until next time, here's to good coffee, good vibes, and great conversations. Cheers.

Khrystyna: Cheers.